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Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage
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or reply to any posts. We suggest that you | Posted By | Post Title | Date Posted |
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/9/2009 12:38:14 AM |
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Well, there's Oblivion Stone Buy, which is a possibility. Its pretty budget-friendly too. __________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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Hephem
Joined: 5/23/2004 Quote: Clerics Master!!!
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/9/2009 6:48:05 PM |
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Dear Alastor, I'm not wanting to hurry anybody (so pardon me for my impatience) but, I'm still waiting for your impressions and your suggestions (you said you'd give yesterday or today). Anyway, once again, thanks for being helping me. That means a lot. Appreciate. 
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/9/2009 11:08:29 PM |
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Indeed, I did. And here are my thoughts... The first thing that I really felt the deck needed was more card draw. Or something to help you find cards that you need. Personally, I added both Brainstorm Buy and Sensei's Divining Top Buy to the deck. Since I'm adding these cards, it also helped with the mana base. The cantrip effect allows us to cheat on lands a little easier. That's why decks like Threshold can get away without playing many lands, other than the fact that their mana curve is low. Brainstorm Buy + Fetchland helped me get rid of extra bounce spells quite often, usually granting my draws with better card quality. From there, I started looking at the Isochron Scepter Buy engine that you had. Here's the thing with Isochron Scepter Buy. In theory, it shouldn't come online until turn 4, unless you have acceleration. Since you run some, lets pretend it'll come out and be activated on turn 3. The best play is often going to be imprinting Counterspell Buy. Other than that, Boomerang Buy can be decent, usually bouncing lands or big threats. Considering the mana curve of your deck, however, wouldn't Counterbalance Buy be more effective and efficient? I decided to test it and I'm really happy with the change. CounterTop is really a beast, just like it is in most decks that run the engine. That said, if you absolutely wanted to keep Isochron Scepter Buy in the deck, my next area of testing would be to use Mystical Tutor Buy to get your silver bullets to imprint. I'd probably run a single Boomerang Buy in that case. I also went with Force of Will Buy in the deck and found that with a few more blue cards, I had no issues. I know you didn't want to cut any of the Clerics you run in the deck, so if you find that Ethersworn Canonist Buy is less than stellar (if you choose to remove Scepter), then what about True Believer Buy? Hopefully this helped you out. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. __________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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Hephem
Joined: 5/23/2004 Quote: Clerics Master!!!
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/10/2009 9:21:12 AM |
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Ok, I've made another version of the deck here. Will test them out, and keep the most effective of them. But before, could you tell me the new version looks like what you've sugegsted? If not eaxacly, what changes would you bring to it? There's one card missing, which one should I add? A tutor? Thanks for your work Alastor.
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/10/2009 1:27:39 PM |
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I'd probably go down to 3 Sensei's Divining Top Buy and 3 Counterbalance Buy, then consider adding a card like Stifle Buy, or another card that would really help in your metagame. It'd probably be blue though, I can say that much. __________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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Hephem
Joined: 5/23/2004 Quote: Clerics Master!!!
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/10/2009 5:06:57 PM |
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ok. I've change that already. Now 2 more things, before I start testing it: 1) The new version of the deck inherited of the land composition of the old one. Therefor its now inadapted. Among other things, having only 4 fetch lands in the deck seams not enough. And Glimmervoid Buy (at least 4) is inefficient because of less artifacts (I just kept chrome mox like you suggested). So what lands composition would you suggest? 2) In previous posts you talked about Tezzeret the Seeker Buy. I guess that for this new version it isn't anymore interesting to considerate it. Tough, with Winter Orb Buy and all, wouldn't Garruk Wildspeaker Buy be a good bet? Thanks.
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/11/2009 7:24:07 PM |
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Well, I think these two questions are pretty much the "next step." I think that if you wanted to play green, you easily could. However, in that case, you might as well play Threshold. Rather than splashing green, splashing black could be interesting. It gives you access to discard, Dark Confidant Buy, more clerics, etc. Personally, I think thats the next area of testing that I'd look at. If you do go three colors, it might be a good idea to shoot for 8 fetchlands. You could do something like 8 fetchlands, 8 duals, and the rest basics for Wasteland Buy protection. That is just a generalization though because you could always use variations of those cards effectively. Adding green could be good because it gives you access to Tarmogoyf Buy and company, but adding black might be a bit more interesting. Its up to you though, really. You don't even need to add the third color, but if you're looking for new avenues to test, then that's what I'd recommend. Hope this helps. Have I answered your questions okay? Is there anything I've left out? I want to be sure that I'm actually being helpful and thorough with answering questions. Do you feel like your deck has improved? __________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/11/2009 7:59:54 PM |
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So, Grand Prix: Chicago was this past weekend. In case you were unaware, it was a Legacy tournament with some of the best players from all over the world playing there. The top 8 looked like this: 1st: Gabriel Nassif (CounterTop Goyf) 2nd: Andy Probasco (CounterTop Goyf) 3rd: Paul Rietzl (Eva Green) 4th: James Mink (Dragon Stompy) 5th: Brian Kowal (B/W/G Deadguy Ale) 6th: Tommy Kolowith (Ad Naseum Tendrils) 7th: David Caplan (Threshold) 8th: Brian Six (Naya Burn) As for the decklists, here you go: Gabriel Nassif 4 Flooded Strand Buy 2 Island Buy 4 Polluted Delta Buy 3 Tropical Island Buy 3 Tundra Buy 4 Underground Sea Buy 4 Dark Confidant Buy 2 Sower of Temptation Buy 4 Tarmogoyf Buy 2 Trygon Predator Buy 4 Brainstorm Buy 4 Counterbalance Buy 3 Daze Buy 4 Force of Will Buy 1 Krosan Grip Buy 2 Ponder Buy 4 Sensei's Divining Top Buy 4 Swords to Plowshares Buy 2 Vedalken Shackles Buy Sideboard 1 Blue Elemental Blast Buy 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender Buy 1 Darkblast Buy 1 Energy Flux Buy 1 Engineered Plague Buy 1 Enlightened Tutor Buy 1 Hydroblast Buy 1 Kataki, War's Wage Buy 1 Krosan Grip Buy 1 Perish Buy 1 Planar Void Buy 1 Relic of Progenitus Buy 1 Threads of Disloyalty Buy 1 Tormod's Crypt Buy 1 Umezawa's Jitte Buy Andy Probasco 2 Academy Ruins Buy 4 Flooded Strand Buy 6 Island Buy 4 Polluted Delta Buy 3 Tropical Island Buy 1 Underground Sea Buy 2 Volcanic Island Buy 3 Sower of Temptation Buy 4 Tarmogoyf Buy 3 Trinket Mage Buy 4 Brainstormp 4 Counterbalance Buy 1 Engineered Explosives Buy 4 Force of Will Buy 2 Krosan Grip Buy 1 Pithing Needle Buy 3 Ponder Buy 4 Sensei's Divining Top Buy 3 Spell Snare Buy 2 Vedalken Shackles Buy Sideboard 2 Ancient Grudge Buy 3 Duress Buy 3 Firespout Buy 2 Hydroblast Buy 1 Krosan Grip Buy 1 Pithing Needle Buy 1 Relic of Progenitus Buy 2 Tormod's Crypt Buy Paul Rietzl 4 Bayou Buy 4 Bloodstained Mire Buy 4 Polluted Delta Buy 6 Swamp Buy 4 Wasteland Buy 2 Dark Confidant Buy 4 Hypnotic Specter Buy 4 Nantuko Shade Buy 4 Tarmogoyf Buy 2 Tombstalker Buy 4 Dark Ritual Buy 1 Diabolic Edict Buy 2 Duress Buy 4 Hymn to Tourach Buy 4 Sinkhole Buy 2 Snuff Out Buy 4 Thoughtseize Buy 1 Umezawa's Jitte Buy Sideboard 1 Choke Buy 1 Diabolic Edict Buy 1 Dodecapod Buy 4 Engineered Plague Buy 4 Leyline of the Void Buy 1 Pithing Needle Buy 3 Seal of Primordium Buy James Mink 4 Ancient Tomb Buy 4 City of Traitors Buy 11 Mountain Buy 4 Arc-Slogger Buy 4 Gathan Raiders Buy 4 Magus of the Moon Buy 4 Rakdos Pit Dragon Buy 4 Simian Spirit Guide Buy 3 Taurean Mauler Buy 2 Blood Moon Buy 4 Chalice of the Void Buy 4 Chrome Mox Buy 4 Seething Song Buy 4 Trinisphere Buy Sideboard 1 Blood Moon Buy 4 Boil Buy 1 Pithing Needle Buy 3 Powder Keg Buy 4 Pyroclasm Buy 2 Umezawa's Jitte Buy Brian Kowal 4 Bayou Buy 4 Bloodstained Mire Buy 1 Plains Buy 4 Scrubland Buy 1 Swamp Buy 4 Wasteland Buy 4 Windswept Heath Buy 4 Dark Confidant Buy 4 Mesmeric Fiend Buy 4 Tarmogoyf Buy 3 Tombstalker Buy 4 Dark Ritual Buy 4 Hymn to Tourach Buy 3 Sensei's Divining Top Buy 4 Swords to Plowshares Buy 4 Thoughtseize Buy 4 Vindicate Buy Sideboard 4 Duress Buy 4 Engineered Plague Buy 3 Extirpate Buy 4 Pernicious Deed Buy Tommy Kolowith 1 Badlands Buy 3 Bloodstained Mire Buy 4 Gemstone Mine Buy 3 Polluted Delta Buy 2 Underground Sea Buy 1 Volcanic Island Buy 2 Ad Nauseam Buy 4 Brainstorm Buy 4 Burning Wish Buy 2 Cabal Ritual Buy 3 Chrome Mox Buy 4 Dark Ritual Buy 4 Duress Buy 1 Ill-Gotten Gains Buy 3 Infernal Tutor Buy 4 Lion's Eye Diamond Buy 4 Lotus Petal Buy 3 Mystical Tutor Buy 1 Orim's Chant Buy 2 Ponder Buy 4 Rite of Flame Buy 1 Tendrils of Agony Buy Sideboard 1 Empty the Warrens Buy 1 Ill-Gotten Gains Buy 1 Infernal Tutor Buy 2 Meltdown Buy 1 Orim's Chant Buy 2 Pyroclasm Buy 1 Rushing River Buy 1 Telemin Performance Buy 1 Tendrils of Agony Buy 1 Thoughtseize Buy 3 Vexing Shusher Buy David Caplan 3 Flooded Strand Buy 3 Polluted Delta Buy 4 Tropical Island Buy 4 Volcanic Island Buy 4 Wasteland Buy 4 Nimble Mongoose Buy 4 Tarmogoyf Buy 4 Brainstorm Buy 4 Daze Buy 4 Ice (Fire/Ice) 4 Force of Will Buy 4 Lightning Bolt Buy 4 Ponder Buy 1 Rushing River Buy 4 Spell Snare Buy 4 Stifle Buy 1 Wipe Away Buy Sideboard 4 Disrupt Buy 1 Engineered Explosives Buy 1 Krosan Grip Buy 2 Pyroblast Buy 1 Pyroclasm Buy 2 Red Elemental Blast Buy 4 Submerge Buy Brian Six 4 Bloodstained Mire Buy 3 Mountain Buy 2 Plateau Buy 3 Taiga Buy 3 Wasteland Buy 3 Windswept Heath Buy 4 Wooded Foothills Buy 3 Grim Lavamancer Buy 4 Kird Ape Buy 4 Tarmogoyf Buy 4 Wild Nacatl Buy 4 Chain Lightning Buy 3 Fireblast Buy 4 Lightning Bolt Buy 1 Lightning Helix Buy 4 Magma Jet Buy 4 Price of Progress Buy 3 Rift Bolt Buy Sideboard 3 Ethersworn Canonist Buy 3 Krosan Grip Buy 2 Pyroblast Buy 4 Pyroclasm Buy 3 Vexing Shusher Buy So, if you have any questions or comments about any of the decklists, feel free to ask! __________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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Jonika
Joined: 6/3/2008 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/12/2009 1:11:46 AM |
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What in the world was Nassif thinking with his sideboard? I realize he has ET to fetch most of the answers, but the board seems kind of sketchey. There is no reason to run kataki with Energy flux in the format. What shocked me more was the fact that he sided out STP and Goyf, and left CB in the main against dragon stompy. I really like Paul Rietzel's Eva Green list.
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evileskimocal
  
Joined: 4/13/2004
Quote:
"When Marge isn't happy, I'm not happy. And when I'm not happy, Moe's very happy. But for once, this isn't about Moe."
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/12/2009 2:39:05 AM |
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I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Magic Rules Advisor AIM: clanlsg 2010 eMmies: Nicest Member 2009 eMmies: Most Likely to be Mod 2008 eMmies: Nicest Member, Best Sig, Funniest Member, Most Likely to be Mod <(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t) 
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Jonika
Joined: 6/3/2008 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/12/2009 4:03:52 AM |
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I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing...[/quote] False... He is an amazing player, but LSV just handed him the deck the night before the event. Apparently LSV didn't give him a sideboard. And I still do not understand why he boarded out goyf and STP and left in CB ,which is mostly dead against DS.
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knuckle
Joined: 11/7/2001 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/12/2009 12:35:47 PM |
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Hiya, Well, I'm trying my hand (again) at a doomed deck. I say it's doomed, because I realize that a deck with Underworld Dreams Buy can most likely never be competitive in the Legacy format. I've been running with a Megrim deck for 7+ years now, and I realize how much of a dead draw those cards can be. I'm also very much fighting having to go with Blue/Black for various personal reasons. In any case, here's the layout of the deck. I'm trying to make this 1/2 beater, 1/2 engine: 3 Avatar of Discord Buy 3 Barbed Shocker Buy 4 Demigod of Revenge Buy 4 Kederekt Parasite Buy 2 Seizan, Perverter of Truth Buy 2 Eradicate Buy 4 Terminate Buy 4 Thoughtseize Buy 4 Underworld Dreams Buy 3 Howling Mine Buy 3 Teferi's Puzzle Box Buy 4 Badlands Buy 4 Graven Cairns Buy 6 Mountain Buy 9 Swamp Buy 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth Buy I would very much appreciate any suggests in making this deck more competitive. I'm sure someone will mention the consistency of Eradicate Buy in this deck, but it has proven to be insanely strong in my meta against decks like Team America, etc.
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Deck Doctor: Legacy and Vintage | 3/12/2009 7:02:20 PM |
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After looking at it a little more in-depth, I've changed my initial thoughts about this sideboard. I'm seeing a method to his madness. Look at the board: Graveyard Hate 1 Relic of Progenitus Buy 1 Tormod's Crypt Buy 1 Planar Void Buy Against Red Decks (Potential difficult match-up) 1 Blue Elemental Blast Buy 1 Burrenton Forge-Tender Buy 1 Hydroblast Buy Artifact Hate 1 Energy Flux Buy 1 Kataki, War's Wage Buy 1 Krosan Grip Buy Creature Hate 1 Engineered Plague Buy 1 Umezawa's Jitte Buy 1 Darkblast Buy 1 Perish Buy 1 Threads of Disloyalty Buy Utility 1 Enlightened Tutor Buy At the very least, every card has a role. There's not complete redundancy, but there's still a significant amount. Relic of Progenitus Buy is effective against graveyard-reliant strategies, but so is Tormod's Crypt Buy and Planar Void Buy. They serve the same role, but they all do it just slightly differently. Having a sideboard like this opens up some opportunities strategically. For instance, if I use Threads of Disloyalty Buy in game 2 on a Tarmogoyf Buy, then you might try to play around Threads of Disloyalty Buy in game 3, only to see Perish Buy clean house. I'm not saying that its right, but his sideboard isn't as bad as it looks. Looking at the top 8, I had a slow realization. Brian Kowal's list is basically Deadguy Ale, which Chris Pikula designed for GP: Philadelphia back in 2005. He finished 2nd with the deck. Kowal's list isn't as heavy on the land destruction but that's really just a product of the metagame. I'd have a hard time categorizing this deck as anything else. Rietzl's Eva Green list looks really good. I'm intrigued. I apologize for kind of ignoring your post in the other deck doctor thread. I'll definitely post back a little later tonight or tomorrow with some thoughts and evaluations. As always, thanks for your patience! EDIT: My response, as promised. Alright, so...here are my thoughts. I think you should consider Nantuko Shade Buy, Tombstalker Buy, and Hypnotic Specter Buy as creatures to add to the deck. Nantuko Shade Buy and Tombstalker Buy are really good beaters, while Hypnotic Specter Buy adds some disruption with beats. Lightning Bolt Buy, Dark Ritual Buy and Hymn to Tourach Buy might also be good additions to the deck. Hymn to Tourach Buy is a good complement to Thoughtseize Buy as both can be played on turn 1 through a Dark Ritual Buy. Dark Ritual Buy gives you an explosive opening that you need, while Lightning Bolt Buy can be removal or it can squeeze through the last few points of damage. I'm sorry I can't really elaborate more, I'm behind on my work, as usual. I'd recommend testing with some of these cards that I've mentioned, then get back to me. I don't think the deck is doomed. I have hope.  Let me know if you have any questions and I'll answer as soon as possible. Thanks!__________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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Forlorn Egoist
Joined: 5/13/2008 Quote: "Vain is the belief that the sequestered path has the fewest flowers."
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Random Comment | 3/12/2009 10:32:45 PM |
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I've already tried this twice, so I may as well try it here to. I need help tweaking my Mono-Black Discard Tournament Legacy, particularly, the sideboard. Creatures 3 Carnophage Buy 3 Hypnotic Specter Buy 4 Nantuko Shade Buy 3 Phyrexian Negator Buy Spells 4 Dark Ritual Buy 2 Diabolic Edict Buy 3 Duress Buy 1 Thoughtseize Buy 4 Ghastly Demise Buy 4 Hymn to Tourach Buy 4 Smother Buy Enchantments 2 Bitterblossom Buy 2 Underworld Dreams Buy Artifacts 4 The Rack Buy Lands 1 Cabal Coffers Buy 16 Swamps Sideboard 2 Guiltfeeder Buy 1 Damnation Buy 4 Smallpox Buy 2 Engineered Plague Buy 1 Gloom Buy 2 Powder Keg Buy 3 Relic of Progenitus Buy For the most part, I perform rather well. I've got enough removal do deal with threats, and enough aggression to keep the pressure on and win the game without too many problems. I just feel like it needs minor alterations. The Underworld Dreams Buy is mostly just an idea I'm playing with. The 2-card slot is mostly a temporary one I'm using to test cards. I'm thinking that perhaps Night's Whisper Buy may be a better card to use. I've also played around with Unearth Buy. I'm mostly encountering problems with my sideboard. Powder Keg Buy, Engineered Plague Buy, Relic of Progenitus Buy and even Smallpox Buy have been useful in the past, however for the most part I'm finding that my sideboard doesn't pack enough punch to be inherently useful. This is where I'm struggling the most. Any advice is welcome. Oh, and for all intensive purposes, I don't have a budget. Forlorn Egoist
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Alastor
Joined: 4/9/2003 Quote: [none]
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RE: Random Comment | 3/12/2009 11:20:07 PM |
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Hi! Sorry I left you hanging in the other thread. I intended on responding, but I wanted to create a new thread that would be packed full of good discussion of my own, so your post was lost in the transition. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I'll definitely help both you and knuckle out by tomorrow evening. Thanks for coming back! EDIT: My response, as promised. Well, you definitely use a lot of staples previously included in Suicide Black. That's a good thing because its proven to be good, at the very least. For the maindeck, I'd probably say that Dark Confidant Buy might be worth testing over Carnophage Buy and Tombstalker Buy might be worth testing over Phyrexian Negator Buy. Mesmeric Fiend Buy might also be interesting, since he'd fit into the disruption plan. I'd probably add two more copies of Duress Buy/Thoughtseize Buy, bringing the total up to six. The only card choices I'd really question are Bitterblossom Buy, Underwold Dreams (as you said), and The Rack Buy. I'm just not really comfortable with these choices, but they might be testing well for you, so I can understand them. They aren't bad choices by any means, but I'm not sure they are optimal. As far as your sideboard, which you really came seeking help with, what does your metagame look like? I'd probably start off with 4 Engineered Plague Buy and 4 Leyline of the Void Buy. The other seven card slots would be up for grabs, but I think it depends on the metagame. Get back with me and then I'll hopefully be able to elaborate a little more. knuckle, I have posted an update to my previous post that discusses a your deck a little bit. Don't want that to get lost in the discussion. As always, good luck everyone! __________________________ DCI Magic Rules Advisor Legacy/Vintage Deck Doctor Storyline Questions? Post here and I'll answer!
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