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messing up then going back
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or reply to any posts. We suggest that you | Posted By | Post Title | Date Posted |
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Zelektor Trasztam
Joined: 8/15/2010 Quote: [none]
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messing up then going back | 6/1/2012 8:29:16 AM |
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so here's the situation my opponent had 5 lands (2 red and 3 blue) I played a Gitaxian Probe Buy and saw a Pyroclasm Buy and Burning Vengeance Buy I had a Mana Leak Buy and Dissipate Buy in my hand my opponent then played the pyroclam tapping both red manas, this way he couldnt play the vengeance on same turn, so I accidentally put the Mana Leak Buy on the table instead of Dissipate Buy and i said ''oops sorry wrong card'' then exchanged it with dissipate my opponent said ''i pay the 3 colorless mana needed for mana leak, this way you cant go back on ur decision because theres already something on the stack'' I think i was correct on going back, since nothing went on the stack, the ''paying 3 mana'' would only happen IF the mana leak was concluded
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GoblinBasar
Joined: 2/26/2007 Quote: [none]
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RE: messing up then going back | 6/1/2012 11:06:08 AM |
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The game rules have no concept of such errors and thus provide no way to deal with them. The tournament rules, however, realize that such errors of, let's call it dexterity (i.e. grabbing the wrong card from your hand) happen. However, there's a not always easy to recognize line between an honest error of dexterity on one side and a player realizing they made a bad play and trying to weasel out of it. So, if I am called to your table, the following things will be relevant for my decision: 1. What lands did you tap? I.e. do you have four lands tapped, or three lands, but paid life for the Probe? That's a pretty good indicator that you meant to cast Dissipate and not Mana Leak. 2. Were you saying anything while casting your spell? Saying "Dissipate your Pyroclasm!" or "Leak you Pyroclasm!" while putting the other card on the table certainly indicates some sort of error; either one of dexterity (grabbing the wrong card) or one speech (speaking the wrong name). 3. How quickly did you catch your "error"? Was it more like put-card-on-table-say-"Oh-wrong-card"-before-really-letting-go-of-it, or was it more like putting the card on the table, looking at your opponent, possibly for some reaction, and the battlefield, and then trying to pick up the card? 4. Your opponent doing something after you tried to correct your error doesn't really have much bearing on things (and his words are completely non-sensical). My final verdict? Hard to give without having been there. If my impression is that it was an honest error of dexterity on your part, that you really meant to play Dissipate and simply grabbed the wrong piece of cardboard, I'll let you take it back. If my impression is that you made a bad play and are trying to get out of it, I won't let you take it back. That said, generally if you realize your mistake quickly enough, i.e. without being able to read a reaction off your opponent, taking back a card is not a problem. The way you describe it looks like I'd let you take it back, but as I said, I wasn't there, and we only have your side of the story.  _____________________________________ DCI Lvl 2 Judge e-Tags: [card]Golgari Guildmage[/card] = Golgari Guildmage Buy
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Zelektor Trasztam
Joined: 8/15/2010 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: messing up then going back | 6/1/2012 10:00:48 PM |
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thank you for your reply the thing was: I said ''i'll counter it'' (the pyroclasm) but I put the mana leak on the table instead of dissipate, then right away i said ''oops wrong card'' but my opponent said instatly ''im paying the 3 mana'' (the mana leak's effet) then i said i played the wrong card ''sorry wrong card, i meant dissipate'' then he was like ''come on, i already paid the mana leak, you cant go back'' edit: like you said, it was a dexterity problem
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shinshas
Joined: 11/30/2009 Quote: [none]
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Random Comment | 6/2/2012 12:02:42 AM |
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What if when the Mana Leak Buy was played it was also "called" by player A, and then player B pais the mana in response also making the "call", only then player A calls the mistake and asks for the return to play Dissipate Buy?
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Cry_Havoc
Joined: 5/15/2003
Quote:
"I suppose this is where I confess that I've always loved you! But I don't. I really, really don't!"
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RE: RE: RE: messing up then going back | 6/2/2012 10:52:45 AM |
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Techniqually when you are playing a spell and adding it to the stack you announce that card by name and put it on the stack. Stating: "I'll counter it" and placing the counterspell on the stack is a bit ambiguous and indeed will make your arguement rather mute when it comes to stating I placed the wrong card down as the number of counter type spells out there is pretty huge. Having said that, I agree with the guru above your opponent paying the  and stating that you can't take it back because he paid the is incorrect and too be honest.... is stupid!“Counterspell Buy = stuff any deck/combo up. Force of Will Buy = stuff any deck/combo up with the added bonus of yelling out "surprise"! Remember, nothing in magic is unbeatable.” Please post your Synergies here: The Synergy Page Thank you. (\__/) ( o.O) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into (")_(") your signature, to help him gain World Domination.
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Cry_Havoc
Joined: 5/15/2003
Quote:
"I suppose this is where I confess that I've always loved you! But I don't. I really, really don't!"
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RE: Random Comment | 6/2/2012 10:58:14 AM |
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a)If the card is called by player A by name stating: "I made a mistake" wouldn't be enough to return the Mana Leak Buy to that players hand for another counter spell. We have all made blunders when it comes to playing this game. You can't keep going, oops wrong move/spell and expect to be able to keep taking it back. Thats not how the game is played and sooner rather than later it would make the game unenjoyable to play. b)Player B cannot pay the 3 in response. Thats not how the payment of Mana Leak Buy works. The fact is, the opponent wouldn't be allowed to make that decision until the Mana Leak Buy is allowed to resolve. Hence the reason the opponent paying the and stating you can't take it back is being... well... stupid!“Counterspell Buy = stuff any deck/combo up. Force of Will Buy = stuff any deck/combo up with the added bonus of yelling out "surprise"! Remember, nothing in magic is unbeatable.” Please post your Synergies here: The Synergy Page Thank you. (\__/) ( o.O) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into (")_(") your signature, to help him gain World Domination.
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HunterZero
Joined: 1/15/2002 Quote: "For the first time in his life, Grakk felt a little warm and fuzzy inside."
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RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/4/2012 3:10:33 AM |
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Note that tournaments operate at different levels of rules enforcement. This is more an issue about game information (you have revealed hidden game information to your opponent) and intention than it is about stack timing. The issue is that to your opponent, it looks like you cast Mana Leak Buy, then changed your mind when you realised the for Mana Leak Buy could be paid. This is potentially a game-changing mistake.At a pro tour tournament, if you started to play Mana Leak Buy that way at a time Mana Leak Buy could legally be played, to the point where the opponent saw the card you revealed, and then you tried to take it back, you would typically be forced by the judge to go through with the play of the Mana Leak Buy. At lower levels of tournament, if your opponent doesn't allow you to take back the declaration of Mana Leak Buy and calls a judge, the judge may allow you to take the move back and issue you with a game procedural warning, but the chances of a judge allowing you to 'undo' a mistake with a legally playable card like this are pretty slim unless you are at a pre-release playing with new cards. In a casual game, you need to decide with your opponent if it's acceptable to take the move back. It may have been an honest mistake, but unfortunately making mistakes is part of playing Magic, and can swing the result of a game. - HZ DCI MTG Rules Advisor 
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Zelektor Trasztam
Joined: 8/15/2010 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/5/2012 10:28:30 PM |
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I understand many people try to cheat doing all the kinds of stuff, including on situations like this one but, if we're talking about serious rules, dont you agree that if i put the mana leak on the field, my opponent has the priority to play spells etc (which wouldnt allow me to go back) then the priority would go back to me, if i wanna add something on the stack. that would give me ''enough time'' to go back if i messed up with some dexterity skills i didnt play the mana leak ''accidentally'' to ''trick'' opponent to cast a spell considering I: did a Gitaxian Probe Buy earlier to check his hand saw a Burning Vengeance Buy (which would make a difference, so i had to counterspell that) then he played other card, Pyroclasm Buy I wouldnt play a mana leak if i saw he had enough manas to pay for it. i just think, players should be able to go back on their decisions ONLY IF theres nothing on the stack when he plays it, isnt there anything on the rules about it? if its gonna be decided by a judge, it'll only end up with one player getting a warning and/or the player can or cant go back, would be all about ''luck'' depending on the judges mood
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HunterZero
Joined: 1/15/2002 Quote: "For the first time in his life, Grakk felt a little warm and fuzzy inside."
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RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/6/2012 4:25:58 AM |
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That's not how it works, so no, I do not agree. When you have priority, you can cast a spell, activate an ability, or perform any of a number of other special actions such as turning a face-down creature face-up for its morph cost, but you cannot change decisions regarding anything already cast on the stack. When you cast a spell, you get priority back again immediately. Your opponent cannot respond to your spell until you pass priority to them. Your spell does not resolve until you pass priority, and your opponent passes priority in succession without casting/activating anything. But in a real game, you don't normally play out every step. You skip bits that aren't important. Your opponent in this case obviously does not want to respond to Mana Leak Buy, is assuming you have no more spells to add to the stack, and is trying to jump forward to the point in the game when Mana Leak Buy resolves and they can pay the . Your opponent hasn't really done anything illegal by trying to do this.But say you cast a spell, and If your opponent jumps ahead in the game like this and tries to either perform an action in response to the first spell, or perform some action associated with the resolution of that spell, and you wanted to cast a 2nd spell before allowing your opponent a chance to respond to the 1st, then this is an infraction of the game's timing rules. The game rules do cover this. If your opponent jumps in and tries to do something like this, the game 'undoes' your opponent's action, and 'backs up' to the point where your option to perform an action was skipped (see Comp Rules 717: Handling Illegal Actions), eg in ths case, to when you regained priority, just after you cast Mana Leak Buy. But even in this case, you do not get 'time' to 'go back' and undo the Mana Leak Buy, because casting Mana Leak Buy wasn't an illegal action. You may have meant to cast the Dissipate Buy, but it is quite possible too that you made a play error, and cast Mana Leak Buy without realising your opponent could pay the . This is not an uncommon game error.This issue is not that your opponent has been tricked into casting a spell... The issue is that you have potentially made a game result changing mistake by announcing a legally playable but tactically incorrect spell. Even then, you still haven't given all the information as to how this particular case played out. Did you say "I cast Mana Leak."? Did you pay the cost? If so, did you pay   , or ? Even then, we can never know your intention, or if you made a genuine mistake. Nobody can know your original intention but you, so a decision by a 3rd party has to be made logically on the game state.A judge won't engage in a game of he-says-she-says. They can only judge the scenario on what actions were taken and the current game state. eg, In a tournament setting, if you responded to an opponent's spell and just said, "I counter it", put down the Mana Leak Buy but paid as if it was Dissipate Buy, and your opponent tried to pay the and didn't see your error in paying the correct cost for Mana Leak Buy, then you claim you mean to cast Dissipate Buy and the situation was flagged for attention from a judge, BOTH players would get a warning for Game Play Error - for not catching the illegal cost payment of Mana Leak Buy. The incorrect cost payment of could either be left as it is, or since the error was caught arguably immediately, the cost payment would more likely be corrected to (which may leave you with enough mana to cast something else). You would not get a do-over for casting your spell. The whole action of announcing the spell would only be undone if you did something like announcing a spell while not actually being able to pay the cost or choose a target.If you put down Mana Leak Buy and had paid , then tried to say you meant to cast Dissipate Buy, I would tell you to suck up your mistake and get on with the game.In casual play, if you had not yet paid for the Mana Leak Buy when the opponent butted in, or even if you paid the cost for Dissipate Buy obviously meaning to play that spell, then I would expect most reasonable opponents would allow the take-back. That player should have waited for you to finish paying for your spell at least!Players do not need more complex rules in the comprehensive rules about situations that may arise from honest mistakes that allow going back on decisions. There are only rules for handling actions that are logically illegal by the game rules. As you can see, even in this one example, there are multiple possible conjectural scenarios. How to handle game play errors in a tournament setting (such as missing triggers, failing to attack with creatures that must attack, forgetting to move a card from one zone to another etc) are broadly covered by the DCI floor rules, so normally, judges are pretty consistent with this sort of thing. There are guidelines for dealing with game play errors. Even so, the forms of game play errors are varied and unique, and must be handled on a case by case basis. Likewise, players need to have the good sportsmanship to realise when they have made a mistake, and to accept the consequences. You'll be more careful not to make the same error again. You just have to be more careful when you plonk your card down on the table. There has to be a point where it is "too late" to change your mind about or correct a particular action, and this line is usually when information has been revealed to a player by an opponent that they may not have been privy to prior. And unfortunately, it is sometimes the case in tournaments where it does come down to a judge's discretion, and the judge has to make a call on what they see, and that call doesn't always go your way. - HZ DCI MTG Rules Advisor
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MitchD
Joined: 6/5/2012 Quote: [none]
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RE: messing up then going back | 6/6/2012 12:16:50 PM |
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I've been teaching new players, in which they consistently have take backs. They get a few reverses of play, but then that's it, if they make the same mistake twice, the play will stand. I'dd expect once they have played their decks at least 10 times, that they would have enough of a understanding to accept their mistakes. Cruel but fair. Play slowly, follow the procedure to play the spell, and you'll never have a problem. However, it's immature to lock your spell in with a defense such as " I already payed 3 mana for the leak". Resembles spitting on someone's ice cream so that they can have it themselves.
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GoblinBasar
Joined: 2/26/2007 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/6/2012 2:05:46 PM |
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I'm afraid this one's going to get long.... HunterZero already mentioned how the game rules technically work here. Let me add, as a judge, that if you play something, give your opponent time to and wait for him to react, and then claim you meant to do something else (and I'm not sure that's what you meant to say, but that's what it reads like to me), I'll almost certainly rule against you and rule that the play you made stands. I'd need some pretty compelling evidence to let you undo something after waiting for an opponent's reaction. For example, if you tapped three Mountains but laid a Divination Buy on the table, I'd probably believe you that you meant to cast the Aura Barbs Buy that's still in your hand. If, however, you tapped a Mountain and two Islands, I'll probably not let you take back the Divination Buy. Maybe you wouldn't, but I really can't assess your play skills nor your level of attention. It's just as possible that you miscounted his untapped lands, thought he only had two mana available, and only realized your error when he went to tap three lands to pay for Mana Leak Buy. So, as I said above, the "strategical correctness" or the "blunder-level" of a play are largely irrelevant. Then you're saying that you should, under no circumstances, have been allowed to take back you card]Mana Leak[/card], because when you played it, there obviously was something else on the stack (namely the spell you wanted to counter). No, there is no such thing in any of the rules documents. If you want a hard-and-fast rule, that rule can only possibly be "no take backs, period!" The bottom line is that we (as judges) want that the games are decided by play skill (i.e. rules knowledge, ability to assess game states and make strategically correct decisions), not physical skills. There will be situations where "enough" evidence suggests that something was likely an error of physical dexterity; those should not deiced games, so allowing a take back seems reasonable. There will also be situations where were very little such evidence exists; those situations are probably better left as they are (i.e. the play should stand). If you feel unfairly treated in such a situation because I didn't allow you to take a play, just take a few extra seconds next time to make sure that what are doing is what you actually mean to do. I have to disagree here. First of all, tapping three lands and then paying only two mana for a spell is not illegal (well, technically adding three mana to your mana pool and then spending only two without announcing this is a violation of rule 106.4a, but that doesn't seem to by the case you're making). However, tapping three lands for a two-mana spell could very well be an indication that the player made an honest error of dexterity. I would expect most judges to react that way. Yes, there has to be a certain "point of no return", but generally that point is not "when information has been revealed to an opponent". Rather, that point is "when the player has had opportunity to see and recognize a reaction form his opponent". In other words, if a player ends up waving his shiny, cool card around the table but has no way of gauging a reaction off his opponent, there's no harm in letting him take it back, because he didn't gain any information. If, however, the player does get a reaction (or could potentially get one) from his opponent and then uses (or can potentially use) that reaction to decide to try and take-back his action, letting him take it back becomes much more problematic. In a case of put-down-a-card-go-"oh-wait-wrong-card-I-meant-this" before even looking up again, most judges will probably be fine with letting you take back your card (even on a Pro Tour level). In a case of putting down a card, looking around the table and at your opponent, and then, after a few moments, going "oh wait, I meant to play this other card", I expect you will find very few judges who will let you take back your move. Well said. _____________________________________ DCI Lvl 2 Judge e-Tags: [card]Golgari Guildmage[/card] = Golgari Guildmage Buy
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HunterZero
Joined: 1/15/2002 Quote: "For the first time in his life, Grakk felt a little warm and fuzzy inside."
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/7/2012 12:05:19 AM |
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Again ths comes down to another interpretation of the details of the game state after this vague scenario. And that's fine to represent an alternate point of view. I am interpreting a state where both players assumed that the the player's mana pool was emptied after Mana Leak Buy was cast, so the whole was deducted from the mana pool. Deducting from your mana pool to pay a cost is an illegal play. Normally when you tap lands while casting a spell, you intend to spend all of it.If this game error had occurred before the mana burn rule was abolished and the error not noticed, then the players would likely not have burnt the player for the 1 unspent mana, because they would not have realised it. After abolishion of the mana burn rule, it's not such a big deal. Likwise, if the player tapped out with when they cast Mana Leak Buy, and the opponent responded to Mana Leak Buy with Daze Buy and the error not caught, it's likely the situation would have played out by that player not paying the cost for Daze Buy. But what if the error was caught when the player realised he paid incorrectly when he can't pay for Daze Buy? If you don't assume the Mana Leak Buy payment was illegal in this case, then you can't back up the Daze Buy either, even though this play would have been reconsidered had the first player made the correct play, because it was not illegal to cast Daze Buy. If you add the back to the player's pool here, it's unfair the to player who cast Daze Buy. It might also be considered unfair to let the Mana Leak Buy payment error stand, and let that spell get Daze Buyd, since BOTH players missed the payment error.But what you are saying is another way of resolving this specific scenario, and assuming one mana of the appropriate type remains in the pool of the player who cast Mana Leak Buy. In this case, it will be whatever was paid for the component, but in other situations with payments of generic mana costs with than one colour, and the error was caught immediately (or close to it), it's best to back up and let the player correct the payment.Yes that's probably a better description for exactly what I meant. I meant information being revealed to the opponent in the specific process of performing an action that is meant to be a legal action in the context of the game. If you put a card down and take it back, then ask your opponent if they saw it and they said no, then that's quite fine. But if you put a card down and announced a target, and the opponent clearly has seen it, then that is different. Of course, waving a card around over your head after drawing it is outside this context - but is still arguably sportsmanship that's outside the spirit of the game. - HZ DCI MTG Rules Advisor
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Zelektor Trasztam
Joined: 8/15/2010 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/7/2012 1:02:13 AM |
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Quoted from GoblinBasar In a case of put-down-a-card-go-"oh-wait-wrong-card-I-meant-this" before even looking up again, most judges will probably be fine with letting you take back your card (even on a Pro Tour level). In a case of putting down a card, looking around the table and at your opponent, and then, after a few moments, going "oh wait, I meant to play this other card", I expect you will find very few judges who will let you take back your move. yes, it was something like ''put down a card, oh wait wrong card'' but let me give you another example that happened on Friday night magic: i had just ONE health point. i had an Inferno Titan Buy on the field my opponent had 3 1/1 human tokens, and a Champion of the Parish Buy with like 5 counters on him on the battle phase, i kept thinking and i was gonna do the 3 damage on the campion and then later play a Slagstorm Buy to get rid of all his creatures I said ''i'm attacking with the titan, and hes gonna deal 3 damage divided as i choose'' i pointed at the champion and said ''ill deal 3 damage on him'' then as i was saying this, i realised he could have a Stave Off Buy that he played earlier, then i stopped myself and said ''wait, actually ill deal 1 damage to each human'', which was a crucial decision and i managed to win, blocking the champion with an Inkmoth Nexus Buy and then attacked him with titan for win was that an ilegal play? or was I allowed to go back on my decision, like i said, it was like ''ill do this..wait sorry, this''
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HunterZero
Joined: 1/15/2002 Quote: "For the first time in his life, Grakk felt a little warm and fuzzy inside."
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/7/2012 1:43:30 AM |
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We still don't have your opponent's side of the story, so it's still not possible for us as a third party to determine if this was a genuine dexterity error, or if you did indeed make a mistake and realised the opponent could pay the after revealing Mana Leak Buy.But if your opponent didn't even wait for you to tap mana, and said "I pay the " after you tried to take it back, I'd give you and your opponent an informal warning and let you change the play. If you did it again, you would not get leniency.Strictly, this is not an illegal play, in the sense that no illegal game actions have been performed. If you did this immediately, and your opponent was fine with it, then that's fine. However if your opponent did call a judge after this, it's clear that enforcing the first announced choice would advantage your opponent. If you admitted to changing your mind, but did it immediately, I would still expect from you a very good explanation about why you changed. Since the information available to you on which you based your decision when making that initial decision and when you changed your mind hasn't changed, you made the change from speculating what your opponent had in their hand, your initial change of decision wasn't based on hidden information revealed to you, and depending on whether the change of decision will immediately obviously impact the game result, to be lenient, I would ask you on the spot to clarify which of the two announced options is your final decision and you would have to stick with it. Certainly if this happened while I was playing you in a casual game, I'd ask you "So which is it?" There is a chance that you made a mistake when evaluating the public information in the game state when making your decision. This would be factored in too. If your change of mind appears to be based around suddenly seeing a better play after announcing one option, I would likely not let you change. So it's quite feasible you would be held to your first announced choice. If it happened more than once, definitely expect less leniency. You must be more careful when you announce your plays, lest you be held to your first choice. - HZ DCI MTG Rules Advisor
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GoblinBasar
Joined: 2/26/2007 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 6/7/2012 2:06:53 PM |
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I think we should let the discussion of this particular incident end. As both I and HZ have said, all we can really do is explain general ideas and principles that will guide a judge's decision whether or not to let you go back. For the actual situation, the best we can do is: "based on what you have told us I would (or I would not) have let you back up, but we only know your side of the story, and we weren't there, so if we had actually been there the decision might have been different" The way you describe it, I probably wouldn't have any problems with you changing your mind like that. But again, we only have your side of the story, and we weren't there, so at the actual FNM my decision might have been different. It is impossible to pay more mana than the game requires. If a player taps three lands to pay for Mana Leak Buy, he has one mana left in his mana pool, even if neither player realizes this. However, having mana left in your mana pool after casting a spell or when passing priority violates rule 106.4a. So, technically, we should normally back up the game to the point of the error, which would undo the casting of Daze Buy. At an FNM level the player should be allowed to do what he meant to do, i.e. tap the necessary lands to pay for Mana Leak Buy, as you also suggested. (At Professional REL I'd still back up to the point of error, if possible, but the tapping would stand, because tapping more lands than you need is not illegal. At Competitive REL I'd probably let you redo your tapping, as well. And, all of this of course assumes that the player did this unintentionally. If the player taps three lands, pays two mana for his spell, and doesn't mention the one remaining mana in the hope of baiting a Daze Buy, that is Cheating and will lead to paperwork for the player and the Head Judge plus an early exit from the tournament for the player.) You seem to misunderstand what I was saying. If you (start to) lay down a card and then pick it up, it is irrelevant if your opponent could see or recognize the card. What is relevant is whether or not your opponent had time to express some sort of reaction (either verbally or by facial expression or any other sort of body language), and whether or not you could potentially have reacted to that reaction. You start laying down Mana Leak and, before the card even hits the table, and without looking at your opponent, you recognize that you accidentally grabbed the wrong card, put it back into your hand and lay down the Dissipate you really wanted to cast. Your opponent calls a judge and says "That guy started playing Mana Leak but then changed his mind; I think he should be held to his first choice." The way I read your posts, you're saying you should be help to Mana Leak, because the opponent saw and recognized the card. What I'm saying is that it's perfectly fine to let you take back your Mana Leak and play Dissipate instead, because your attempt to change the card was not based on (the possibility of) reacting to your opponent's reaction. It doesn't even matter (much) if you initially meant to cast Mana Leak and then realized in mid-motion that your opponent could pay and then changed your mind, or if you really just noticed an error of grabbing the wrong card. The important thing is that you cannot draw reactions from your opponent and then change your plays based on those reactions. _____________________________________ DCI Lvl 2 Judge e-Tags: [card]Golgari Guildmage[/card] = Golgari Guildmage Buy
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