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Modern, why it sucks.
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TetrAggressive
Joined: 8/1/2010
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Security, or Freedom
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Modern, why it sucks. | 6/19/2012 9:03:20 AM |
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Let's all hate on Modern, because even though Wizards had a great idea, they ruined it by creating a combo-ridden format, where there is no Force of Will Buy, and everything fun or "overpowered" gets banned. Any ideas as to why they'd ruin such a great idea? - My RedBubble profile: All purchases go to a good cause... my college fund.
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Jaded Pokémon
Joined: 10/17/2003 Quote: I stepped out, I did not step down
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RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/21/2012 2:45:32 AM |
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Because otherwise everybody with $$$ would be playing with moxes, lotuses force of wills and stupidness and there would be no room for anyone else to compete
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EmilLang1000
Joined: 6/20/2003
Quote:
"Alright, I'm only going to say this once... before you ask, 'what's that do,' or, 'I didn't know it did that,' or, 'you can't do that - how did you do that,' I'll ask you to do one very, very simple thing...
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RE: RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/21/2012 6:48:54 AM |
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??? How would you play with Moxes and Lotuses pray-tell? Anyway, I agree that Force of Will is needed. Thankfully, it's an Uncommon, and may eventually be reprinted as a Mythic Rare so that it can exist in Modern. Additionally, Jaded, you are aware that the Dual Lands are all running in the mid-$20s, Dark Confidant is floating around $40-50, and Tarmogoyfs are going for $90-100? It's already ridiculously one-sided to people with money. The one really good thing about Modern is that Wizards has stated that they're actually watching the secondary market, and will reprint staples (such as Goyf, Bob, and the Shock Lands), so that they will plummet in price to "human" levels. That being said, don't expect to see Goyfs at less than $15 (more likely $20), nor Duals at less than $10, but at least they'll be at a point where nearly everyone who wants them and is willing to shell out a modest amount can get them.  Dude, am I blowin' your mind yet or what? "If your question is, 'I don't understand how this card works,' I will always answer with, 'read it again until you understand how it works.'"
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Fire Moth
Joined: 4/7/2005 Quote: i used to play 60 card casual but then i took an EDH in the knee
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RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/21/2012 7:33:59 AM |
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combo? i thought modern was just filled with delver decks, like every other format  *disclaimer* any suggestions i make are purely hypothetical, unless otherwise stated. if you have playtesting evidence to prove otherwise, then feel free to ignore any suggestions i make
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Cry_Havoc
Joined: 5/15/2003
Quote:
"I suppose this is where I confess that I've always loved you! But I don't. I really, really don't!"
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RE: RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/21/2012 9:46:32 AM |
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And I thought its the format where you can't play cards. (O_o) “Counterspell Buy = stuff any deck/combo up. Force of Will Buy = stuff any deck/combo up with the added bonus of yelling out "surprise"! Remember, nothing in magic is unbeatable.” Please post your Synergies here: The Synergy Page Thank you. (\__/) ( o.O) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into (")_(") your signature, to help him gain World Domination.
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Jaded Pokémon
Joined: 10/17/2003 Quote: I stepped out, I did not step down
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RE: RE: RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/22/2012 2:38:48 AM |
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I don't care about the money dude. What I was saying is cards are banned so that people actually have to try to build a deck instead of just playing with 4 skull clamps or multiple Sol Rings and so on. It's cool for casual buffs like me but when you've played against enough banned decks it gets hard to keep up. It's constant invalidation. If you cant afford 10-50+ dollar cards you shouldn't play with the big boys. It's a trading card game, if your afraid to collect cards you'll never keep up
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Fire Moth
Joined: 4/7/2005 Quote: i used to play 60 card casual but then i took an EDH in the knee
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RE: RE: RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/22/2012 4:52:01 AM |
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this is also true *disclaimer* any suggestions i make are purely hypothetical, unless otherwise stated. if you have playtesting evidence to prove otherwise, then feel free to ignore any suggestions i make
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Shizukanashi
Joined: 3/6/2011 Quote: www.Ankhet.com come play a fun forum based game. Tell them Shizu sent you!
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RE: Modern, why it sucks. | 6/24/2012 4:44:02 PM |
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While I at one time agreed with all of your views on Modern, I am starting to come around to it. First of all the very recent GP in Yokohama which was won by B/W Tokens (In a match verses Mono blue Faries) shows that 1) You can play cards in Modern 2) Its not all Delver all the time (like Standard currently is) and 3) Its not really that expensive. I think that Modern is actually going to start becoming the prevered pauper format (well with the exception of pauper) Its way cheaper than Legacy, and I contest that it is cheaper than Standard (at least if you have been playing for a long time) because it doesnt change and you dont need to rip packs to have a long standing viably competative deck. Finally let me say that Modern is in its Infancy. As the list gets bigger (due to more expansions) the banned and restriced list will change. I feel that Wizards will do what their best to remove cards from the list as the Meta changes (as they have recently done with Land tax in Legacy) Legacy has developed over years...nay decades of play. Modern has been around for a fraction of that time. Even standard is not perfect (remember when they banned Jace and Mystic?) Give Modern its due, and allow it its growing pains. As we as players forge and temper the format the banned list will solidify the meta will expand, and cards will start coming off the list. I really feel that Modern is the future of Magic, give it a while to mature and I think most of you will agree.
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squigis
Joined: 1/5/2006 Quote: [none]
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Random Comment | 7/1/2012 9:01:24 AM |
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I'm not sure why they would come out with a new format called 'Modern.' It's basically an expanded version of Extended without reaching back to some of the really good sets of the past. The format could be fun, but I'd still rather play Legacy. I'm not a fan of sets rotating out, and I'd rather play an eternal format for sure.
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EmilLang1000
Joined: 6/20/2003
Quote:
"Alright, I'm only going to say this once... before you ask, 'what's that do,' or, 'I didn't know it did that,' or, 'you can't do that - how did you do that,' I'll ask you to do one very, very simple thing...
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RE: Random Comment | 7/1/2012 10:30:39 PM |
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You do realize that Modern is an Eternal Format. It's never going to rotate - it starts at 8th Edition and will always be 8th Edition forward. Dude, am I blowin' your mind yet or what? "If your question is, 'I don't understand how this card works,' I will always answer with, 'read it again until you understand how it works.'"
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squigis
Joined: 1/5/2006 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: Random Comment | 7/2/2012 9:21:08 AM |
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If Wotc really wanted it to be a good format, they would have included 7th, Invasion block, Odyssey block, and Onslaught block. Those were some of the most balanced and fun sets ever printed. And I was talking about eternal formats from the perspective of including all sets, not so much the last 10 blocks. If you wanted to get technical, they basically said 'let's make an eternal format that's based solely on the new card frames.' Can't get much more ridiculous than that. Also, about half the cards on the banned list, shouldn't be there. I can understand banning cards based on their previous status in T2, but stuff like Jitte, Chrome Mox, Ancestral Vision, Sensei's Divining Top, and Cloudpost (just to name a few) is basically like drawing the names of cards from a hat to randomly ban. Doesn't make sense, and the format will suck as it is.
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Cry_Havoc
Joined: 5/15/2003
Quote:
"I suppose this is where I confess that I've always loved you! But I don't. I really, really don't!"
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RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 7/3/2012 12:01:20 PM |
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Well technically cards from those sets can still be used in modern as long as there is a reprint of it with the modern border. For example, Ground Seal Buy is now a modern playable card. Having said that, having the invasion block, odyssey and onslaught blocks included would totally make the concept of modern redundant and even more stupid then it already is. (Stupid because of the number of cards that have already been banned!). Imagine if they included it: "Well magic fans, we will be introducing you to a new format. It is called modern with invasion, odyssey and onslaught because they are balanced according to squigis" Good for you that you were using the term eternal format from that perspective... except for the fact that the term eternal format means a format that doesn't rotate cards/sets out. Not "lets include every set ever printed" And if we do go technical that is basically exactly what they said. Modern format are for cards that have been printed sets post 8th edition onwards (i.e. cards with the "modern" border, hey maybe thats where this modern link for the name came from) that are tournament legal sets. (I.e. no planarchaos 2012 or any exiled from the vault sets etc). So as example given above. I can use my lovely Ground Seal Buys from odyssey now because they have been reprinted in magic 2013. Hey, who knows. Maybe it will be an eternal format from the perspective you were conveniently using with the way they keep reprinting cards. But that is the reason the format is called modern! Well, obviously you can... you just proved it! Whilst I agree with the format will suck bit the cards they have banned do totally make sense when you use banning as a way to restrict over powered play/over used strategies from being overally abused such as wizards has. Cloudpost Buy was banned because for a while there everyone in modern were using "12 post" decks. Their options for banning to prevent this was a)Glimmerpost Buy, b)Cloudpost Buy, or c)Vesuva Buy. Obviously Vesuva Buy is the clear choice huh. WRONG! Vesuva Buy at one stage there was worth $20-$25 each because of 12 posts. Therefore banning this one would be silly as not every player had/could afford Vesuva Buy. Plus, Vesuva Buy has other uses other than copying your own Cloudpost Buy and producing sh!t loads of mana. Cloudpost Buy is the key card to a land base for 12 post decks. So clearly the one to ban, and is far more accessible than Vesuva Buy due to its price value at the time. And as for sensie's divining top, I have a play set of these guys and they are awesome in any deck you stick them in. So totally can see why this got the flick. The fact is ideally, it should be not banning particular cards but combination of cards. So with the Cloudpost Buy situation above, no decks should have Vesuva Buy and Cloudpost Buy together in the same deck. And only ban a card if it is overpowered in and of itself (such as the top!) But other than that, totally agree with you. (o_O) “Counterspell Buy = stuff any deck/combo up. Force of Will Buy = stuff any deck/combo up with the added bonus of yelling out "surprise"! Remember, nothing in magic is unbeatable.” Please post your Synergies here: The Synergy Page Thank you. (\__/) ( o.O) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into (")_(") your signature, to help him gain World Domination.
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squigis
Joined: 1/5/2006 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 7/4/2012 6:07:08 AM |
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Which further makes it a pointless endeavor to create a format which is based on the appearance of certain cards. I didn't suggest those sets to be added to the format because I think they are balanced. I suggested them because those sets are at the right power level for standard play (T2/limited), nothing from any of those sets was ever banned in standard, AND because those were the first sets that Wotc started producing with the 'modern' design mechanics where they started spreading a lot of the power around evenly. I understand that, and it doesn't make it any better of an idea. Formats are usually designed around a specific premise of power and play, not because of something superficial like the boarder on a card. That would be like constructing a format and limiting it to cards that have artwork done by RK Post, cards that have really cool set symbols, or even picking sets based on the color of the card borders. It means nothing in terms of game play and it speaks volumes about the stupidity of the Modern format. Actually, back when Cloudpost was T2 legal, the only decks running it were TaN decks, post Ravager ban. Coincidentally, prior to Ravager Affinity being banned, no one played Cloudpost in anything, cuz it wasn't that powerful. Even in TaN, it wasn't powerful. Some card interaction with Vesuva didn't make it OP, and certainly didn't make it a tier 1 deck that EVERYONE was playing. In fact, with Time Spiral block, the deck to beat was Soggy Pickles (which didn't run Cloudpost), and it never got banned. The same goes for SDT. While it was a great card, especially at uncommon, it did not become the best card in the format, and it was never even considered for the ban list. We can talk about any standard format involving the cards on the banned list for Modern, and point out the flaws with picking any of those cards to be banned in that format. Historically, they've only ever banned cards that contribute to decks which make the format all about deck vs counter deck, and based on that premise alone, many of the cards on the banned list for Modern, shouldn't be there. They should also make it 7th/invasion on up, and get rid of the 'card boarder design' theme. Cards used to look a lot better back then anyway.
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Cry_Havoc
Joined: 5/15/2003
Quote:
"I suppose this is where I confess that I've always loved you! But I don't. I really, really don't!"
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 7/4/2012 7:12:41 AM |
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Whilst I can soughta understand your point here it isn't just looking at the appearance of cards. Thats a superficial aspect of the format. The fact is modern does tend to run a different style of play instead because the cards being designed in current and future sets are not being designed the same as the good old oldies so to speak. Hang on, your arguement here is completly flipping on itself. Your stating you didn't state that... but actually you did. Regardless: a) T2 isn't Modern, different concept entirely. b) T2 isn't an enternal format, like modern is so why are you comparing these two formats in this debate!? c) Nothing was banned from those sets during their time in standard because wizards avoids at all costs banning anything in standard to prevent backlash. It rarely happens. Currently no cards banned in standard so it must mean they are the right power level for standard. Humbug! d) What 'modern' design mechanics are you referring too that odyssey, invasion and onslaught have that spreaded to modern!? True just noticed that myself... hmmm. Wizards! Really!!! I find you stating that a format are usually designed around a specific premise of power and play soughta says it for you as to why modern exists. I mean T2 (which you have referred to a couple of times) isn't a format designed around any specific premise of power and play! It's just the 2 most recent blocks pluse 1-2 core sets depending on the time of the year it is. WTF is with you using examples from T2, again, wizards do not like to ban cards in T2 for fear of backlash, so they are very very very much unlikely to do this. In modern it became powerful and was being overly abused by alot of players hence Cloudpost Buy got banned. Plan and simple really. Telling me other format issues as a comparison point for this is stupid! Arrrgh, what has this got to do with the price of eggs! (or Vesuva Buy!) Wizards want as much diversity when it comes to formats. When they don't get it they will ban it! Simple really! No, banning cards is based on diversity and what backlash it could cause if it was banned. Naming a card as not being banned in standard doesn't say much at all cause wizards rarely ban cards in T2 for backlash reasons. Therefore stating it not being banned in standard as a basis for why a card shouldn't be banned in another is a load of crap! “Counterspell Buy = stuff any deck/combo up. Force of Will Buy = stuff any deck/combo up with the added bonus of yelling out "surprise"! Remember, nothing in magic is unbeatable.” Please post your Synergies here: The Synergy Page Thank you. (\__/) ( o.O) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into (")_(") your signature, to help him gain World Domination.
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squigis
Joined: 1/5/2006 Quote: [none]
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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Random Comment | 7/4/2012 11:18:10 AM |
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I can agree that new card sets are designed in a different manner than older sets, with a different power scaling and a different focus on card interactions. Modern is a hodge podge of all the t2 formats from the last X number of years. Theoretically, the only difference between Modern and the current T2 environment, is the size of the card pool. Power level and the focus of card interaction is almost exactly the same. It basically means a greater number of potential viable decks. It does not mean a substantial increase or decrease in power. Nothing was banned from those sets because there were at least a dozen different T1 deck options. Wotc doesn't 'avoid banning anything at all costs' because balance in an environment is a 'cost,' and if they avoided all costs, they'd never ban anything. Instead, they ban things when an environment becomes X deck vs anti X deck, where even in said environment, X deck is still dominant. Originally, the first sets of this game had way too few singularly powerful cards and way too many terrible cards. Over time, they succeeded in spreading that power out, but up until 7th/invasion, there was still a very wonky ratio between singular power cards and the terrible cards. At that point, they also established a design philosophy which weeded out easy infinite combos, boosted the power level of the 'terrible' cards, and put more appropriate costs on power cards/mechanics. They slipped up on that in Mirrodin, trying to do a throw back to Urza's Saga, and again with the whole JtMS and Stoneforge Mystic fiasco, and maybe again with these token decks. But since 7th/invasion block, cards have been designed completely different than before that. The average card has a lot more power and value than they used to, and the average power card isn't a toss up between complete garbage and insane power. That's the 'modern' card design philosophy I'm talking about. The premise of power and play is what I just outlined. It's a design philosophy that prevents P9 type cards and ensures the other 95% of a set isn't complete garbage. Otherwise, they'd just start reprinting P9 and copy + pasting the garbage cards from A/B/U. Like I said earlier, Modern is just a hodge podge of all the different T2 environments that have come out in recent years. Each block that exists has the same strengths and weaknesses that they did when they were T2 legal. It's not like taking a T2 deck and adding P9 + other restricted list cards and calling it a deck, it's more like taking the past 10 blocks and wedging them together like a Deluxe Extended format. They banned Cloudpost for the same reason they banned a bunch of other cards in Modern - for absolutely no reason at all. If they were worried about power and abuse, they would have put Ravager, Disciple of the Vault, and Aether Vial on that list. They would also look at U/B Madness, Slide, and a few other really good decks. Exactly, which is why they only ban cards when the format becomes X deck vs anti X deck. The fact that a deck that generates a buttload of mana by turn 4 has nothing to do with anything, even if they came out and claimed that as the reason they banned Cloudpost. It was generating 12 mana by turn 4 back in T2, powered one of the top tier decks at the time, and was never even looked at. But then we have a format where you can play Ravager Affinity again, and getting 12 mana on turn 4 is all of a sudden bad? I'd say they have some bad people on the R&D team. But then again, we are talking about a format that was designed solely around the new card frames. Apparently you've never played an environment where a Wotc has to step in and ban cards.
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